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would you support the writers guild of america striking?
yes
64%
[ 31 ]
no
25%
[ 12 ]
wait, what the hell are you talking about?
10%
[ 5 ]
total votes : 48
author
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foolsfollyjoined: 19 apr 2006posts: 422location: tn
posted: tue oct 16, 2007 11:36 pm post subject:
lagomorph wrote: dayan wrote: on the one hand, residuals have always seemed like an odd concept. i am unproduced, so i don't benefit from the current system. but i used to work as a copywriter and i don't expect to benefit from language i wrote being used in trade publications. i was paid a fair wage at the time - and the understanding was that my employers would own my work. same thing goes for the book adaptations i have done. i might view work that i originated differently, but for work i was hired for, i have no real sense of ownership. and frankly as opposed to most jobs i've had, when i do work, i am usually paid quite well for a comparatively short period of time.
i don't agree here. residuals have an important place in the scheme of entertainment. think about the series out there that don't really take off until syndication (classic star trek) or dvd (firefly). while going wage for work for hire may seem decent for the time, think of the money made after said shows were said and done. the writers and actors deserve a cut.
to put it another way: don't compare writing scripts digging a ditch. compare it to writing novels. a novelist continues to make money everytime a copy of their books are reprinted and sold (until they go public domain and lose copyright). so should it be for tv writiers and actors.
devil's advocate here, what about gaffers or boommike operators? assistant directors? everyone there works to make a product and should they not also reap rewards after the fact?
as dayan says, i think creators might deserve more but some writers are work for hire, they do the work and they're done. like with firefly joss deserves a good cut of that, it's his baby. but any script doctor or guest writer on a series probably doesn't deserve the same treatment as a creator.
brian k. vaughan wrote: dayan wrote: i notice our host - despite starting the topic remains somewhat mum on the whole thing. care to chime in with your thoughts, mr. v?
first of all, this is about much more than residuals (where there was actually some positive movement in today's negotiations with the amptp). it's about things like health benefits, pension, and our participation in all kinds of digital distributions, all of which the studios are threatening with significant rollbacks or complete elimination.
as a fellow wga member, i'd strongly encourage you to vote "yes." remember, a strike authorization doesn't automatically mean that we're going on strike, just that we can if it's deemed necessary.
as a friend recently articulated, a "no" vote would, at worst, take away a massive negotiating tool, or, at best, just weaken our negotiating position. the only ultimate result of a "no" vote is that the companies would see us as weak and would push forward their rollbacks. in essence, a "no" vote actually increases the chance of a strike because we would be cornered as their demands grew more insane and their position became more immovable.
a "yes" vote gives the negotiating committee the leverage to show the companies we’re a united guild. they will only negotiate with a united guild. yes, it could mean a strike. but it is also our only chance at avoiding a strike, which no one wants (especially me).
as i mentioned in a recent interview, the writers guild of america isn't a perfect union, but i was afforded more benefits and protections in my first few months with the wga as a work-for-hire screenwriter than i was ever given in a decade of working in comics. and i've been treated pretty honorably throughout my careers in both mediums, and have made more money than i ever deserved to doing this "job," but that doesn't mean that i can't still be concerned about the generations of creators before and after me, and all the less-fortunate writers who really need our support in this matter.
sorta a "if you want peace, prepare for war," sorta thing, eh boss?
that said, studios/networks should not fuck with health benefits. writing isn't a steady job and writer's and their families will have health problems and they deserve to gain health benefits as the cost of living and cost for medical care goes up, a step backwards in this section is something the guild should not ever stand for.
i still think the digital media is too new and is testing the waters. i don't think the studios will back down on this front because as they move away from third parties...it's the studios paying bandwidth, security, coding, and everything else.
and they pay this monthly or more while dvds they pay x amount for x amount of discs at a factory. i've heard that it costs about a buck a dvd to make, i can't find any proof, but it's what i've heard. if true then profits on dvds are great.
again they're moving from third parties and that's also a finical risk, there are diehard itunes fans who probably will not go ahead and convert to an universal or nbc itunes knock-off. especially if it's buggy, overpriced, or incompatible with different hardwares/softwares which will make using such a service an inconvenience.
asking for money at this juncture might not be such a great idea. and again, with money not guaranteed in this new digital media the studios will be less likely to cave to that; especially with the sag contracts ending next year and they'll be demanding the same.
should writer's get some action from this media? maybe later when there's a system set up and its use is as popular and used as often tv or dvds.
i don't think the digital argument can be won this year, even with a strike, because they're asking for money that's not there or at least not there in a real way and if the actors ask for the same thing, all the cost involved might cause the studios to back out of that media.
nbc's already backed out anything made for the 08 season will not be legally sold online, period, and universal is building its own service. i can admire the "strike while the iron's hot" attitude, it's very capitalist, but everyone's still testing the waters in this media and for the future stability of that media it might be better to wait for this it to grow stronger. and it might not, i wonder if more people bootleg shows/movies or buy them legally online....i can't think more people pay for them when it's so easy to get them for free and get away with it.
and then technology will just make it easier to bootleg as people try to make it harder to bootleg.
fight for rates, and it's criminal to not get better health benefits, but to compromise i wonder about how the digital argument will play out._________________"clothes make the man. naked people have little or no influence on society."
"if voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it."
-mark twain.
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lagomorphjoined: 07 oct 2004posts: 3942location: greater la (sfv), ca
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 12:39 am post subject:
foolsfolly wrote: lagomorph wrote: dayan wrote: on the one hand, residuals have always seemed like an odd concept. i am unproduced, so i don't benefit from the current system. but i used to work as a copywriter and i don't expect to benefit from language i wrote being used in trade publications. i was paid a fair wage at the time - and the understanding was that my employers would own my work. same thing goes for the book adaptations i have done. i might view work that i originated differently, but for work i was hired for, i have no real sense of ownership. and frankly as opposed to most jobs i've had, when i do work, i am usually paid quite well for a comparatively short period of time.
i don't agree here. residuals have an important place in the scheme of entertainment. think about the series out there that don't really take off until syndication (classic star trek) or dvd (firefly). while going wage for work for hire may seem decent for the time, think of the money made after said shows were said and done. the writers and actors deserve a cut.
to put it another way: don't compare writing scripts digging a ditch. compare it to writing novels. a novelist continues to make money everytime a copy of their books are reprinted and sold (until they go public domain and lose copyright). so should it be for tv writiers and actors.
devil's advocate here, what about gaffers or boommike operators? assistant directors? everyone there works to make a product and should they not also reap rewards after the fact?
as dayan says, i think creators might deserve more but some writers are work for hire, they do the work and they're done. like with firefly joss deserves a good cut of that, it's his baby. but any script doctor or guest writer on a series probably doesn't deserve the same treatment as a creator.
they wouldn't begetting the same treatment as a creator. under a fair residuals scheme, a guest writer would be getting a far smaller piece than a show's creator. but they still deserve a cut, however small.
adressing other points (mainly the "engineer not getting paid contiously for a bridge point)...
entertainment, particularly television isn't like other products. tonight i just bought a waste basket. money changed hands once. i gave cash to the store, end of purchase. i now have full ownership of said basket.
a tv show is different. it gets sold to the network, then sold into syndication, sold into the home aftermarket (dvds), sold internationally, and nowadays, sold online. a tv show is, potentially, a perpetual money making machine. those who contributed to a show's creation and success should continue to reap the benefits.
one thing i want to address though is something quite large: labor has taken a beating in this country over the last few decades, to the point where many working people now think of those unioned workers with good benefits, "well, i don't get benefits, so why should they?" the working people of this country need to start asking, "they get benefits. why don't i?"
big business isn't hurting for money people. upper managment (in just about every industry out there) isn't taking any paycuts. but it's the working stiffs who are losing their pensions. yeah, remember those? well, if you're under the age of 60, you'll probably never have one.
the working/middle class needs to start asking why we're expected to take less and less. this isn't communism either. this is the only thing that will save capitalism in the long run: assuring that the consumer/working/middle class is well taken care of._________________"once you learn to discern the voice of mother culture humming in the background, telling her story over and over again to the people of your culture, you'll never stop being conscious of it."
-daniel quinn
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foolsfollyjoined: 19 apr 2006posts: 422location: tn
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 1:47 am post subject:
lagomorph wrote: foolsfolly wrote: lagomorph wrote: dayan wrote: on the one hand, residuals have always seemed like an odd concept. i am unproduced, so i don't benefit from the current system. but i used to work as a copywriter and i don't expect to benefit from language i wrote being used in trade publications. i was paid a fair wage at the time - and the understanding was that my employers would own my work. same thing goes for the book adaptations i have done. i might view work that i originated differently, but for work i was hired for, i have no real sense of ownership. and frankly as opposed to most jobs i've had, when i do work, i am usually paid quite well for a comparatively short period of time.
i don't agree here. residuals have an important place in the scheme of entertainment. think about the series out there that don't really take off until syndication (classic star trek) or dvd (firefly). while going wage for work for hire may seem decent for the time, think of the money made after said shows were said and done. the writers and actors deserve a cut.
to put it another way: don't compare writing scripts digging a ditch. compare it to writing novels. a novelist continues to make money everytime a copy of their books are reprinted and sold (until they go public domain and lose copyright). so should it be for tv writiers and actors.
devil's advocate here, what about gaffers or boommike operators? assistant directors? everyone there works to make a product and should they not also reap rewards after the fact?
as dayan says, i think creators might deserve more but some writers are work for hire, they do the work and they're done. like with firefly joss deserves a good cut of that, it's his baby. but any script doctor or guest writer on a series probably doesn't deserve the same treatment as a creator.
they wouldn't begetting the same treatment as a creator. under a fair residuals scheme, a guest writer would be getting a far smaller piece than a show's creator. but they still deserve a cut, however small.
i don't think they deserve that. a guest writer or director, like kevin smith on that new show, or joss on the office, don't offer enough to the over all show to deserve to get money from the selling of that show to tv stations/dvds.
they did the work and the job was over, they didn't craft enough material to get anything from it. imo at least.
lagomorph wrote:
one thing i want to address though is something quite large: labor has taken a beating in this country over the last few decades, to the point where many working people now think of those unioned workers with good benefits, "well, i don't get benefits, so why should they?" the working people of this country need to start asking, "they get benefits. why don't i?"
big business isn't hurting for money people. upper managment (in just about every industry out there) isn't taking any paycuts. but it's the working stiffs who are losing their pensions. yeah, remember those? well, if you're under the age of 60, you'll probably never have one.
the working/middle class needs to start asking why we're expected to take less and less. this isn't communism either. this is the only thing that will save capitalism in the long run: assuring that the consumer/working/middle class is well taken care of.
i live in the south, we don't have unions here. my uncle fought for one and lost his job fighting. end of the day, the factory jobs will fight it and now have the power to just uproot and move south, or move to mexico, and take those jobs with them.
the threat of a strike down here wasn't enough to make the news...even here. the push for a union loss never made news either, and my uncle didn't get his job back and no one cared.
this is why my generation wants to move to hollywood, be a pro-athlete, die trying to get rich, because you can't work to it anymore. you either fall into riches or your born into it. working your fingers to the bone just gets you in debt with bony fingers.
we could ask for more but it would hurt. there are families on the line and people just getting by with two or more jobs cannot risk losing a job for benefits and you can't really ask them to, it's their families.
the working class has taken hits and blows and it might take some big confrontation to set things right....but things have to get a lot worse for people to start risking their livelihood._________________"clothes make the man. naked people have little or no influence on society."
"if voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it."
-mark twain.
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johnbiltzjoined: 01 may 2005posts: 2904location: phoenix
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 2:37 am post subject:
one thing i think people overlook about residuals as opposed to a higher wage for writers is its risk avoidance. not all shows are going to make money for the network. its cheap for the production companies to do it this way compared to raising the cost for base production. they only have to pay it if there is money there to pay for it, they don't have to if it is not there. its an accounting decision plain and simple._________________"the mighty oak was once a little nut that stood its ground."
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guyincorporatedjoined: 28 aug 2007posts: 8location: hollywood, ca
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 4:23 pm post subject:
quote: writers' strike averted?
raising legitimate hopes for the first time that a strike by the writers guild of america against hollywood film and tv studios could be averted before the expiration of the current wga contract on october 31, the producers on tuesday withdrew a proposal that would have delayed payment of residuals to writers until the costs of production, distribution and marketing were recouped. nick counter, president of the alliance of motion picture & television producers, said that the group was withdrawing the proposal "in the overriding interest of keeping the industry working and removing what has become an emotional impediment and excuse by the wga not to bargain." the wga issued a terse response, stating that it hoped that the withdrawal of the recoupment proposal "means the companies are ready to begin serious negotiations."
from imdb, where i get all my hard-hitting entertainment news.
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dayanjoined: 17 nov 2004posts: 137location: los angeles, ca
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 5:17 pm post subject:
well, most people i talk to feel this residual revamp was a straw man from the beginning, something the studios could get people riled up about - and then take off the table "in the spirit of compromise".
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blakejoined: 05 mar 2005posts: 1127
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 9:42 pm post subject:
dayan wrote: well, most people i talk to feel this residual revamp was a straw man from the beginning, something the studios could get people riled up about - and then take off the table "in the spirit of compromise".
that's pretty low of them, despite my dissagreements with the residuals the other issues seem to be far more important and just more required.
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murphixjoined: 12 jul 2005posts: 460location: boston, ma
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 9:59 pm post subject:
ok, i thought i read that the studios had conceded the residuals issue, but now i can't find it on hollywood reporter or variety. i didn't imagine this, right?
what has me worried about this is not the lack of content coming out from television; right now i don't even own one. i'm really worried about the wga "blacklist" procedures, where people will be barred from ever joining the wga if they contribute to any "new media" outlet.
well, what about me, a fresh-out-of-college-er whose only outlet is to put stuff on youtube? is this going to hurt my future ties with the guild (knock on wood)? furthermore, what the hell is new media? does it include comics? what about writing comics for companies owned by major motion picture studios, i.e. dc and all its subsidaries? right now there are so many gray areas that it feels as the the guild is trying to extend its reach to all forms of writing outside of prose and poetry.
since i hope to join the guild someday, it would certainly ease my own personal fears if those were clarified before any striking action starts._________________flickr!
giant robots fighting god: oh, you have no idea.
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brian k. vaughansite adminjoined: 25 sep 2004posts: 3822
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 10:20 pm post subject:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-rodman17oct17,0,1982562.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
from the los angeles times
share the wealth with writers
writer's guild members shouldn't allow billionaire media companies to write off their work.
by howard a. rodman
october 17, 2007
as i write this, the members of the writers guild of america are voting on whether to authorize a strike. should that authorization be approved -- and i strongly suspect it will be -- the guild's board would be empowered to call a strike of its members: the people who write the films you see, the television you watch, on screens large, medium and small. that strike could be called at any time after the expiration of the current contract at midnight on halloween.
i don't want a strike. i really don't want a strike. i am a working screenwriter. after years of pushing large things uphill, two screenplays of mine are now filmed and are scheduled to come out in 2008. it's the kind of lovely momentum i've been hoping for, and working toward, for years; a work stoppage would derail this fine train. yet i am voting for this strike authorization, and i urge my fellow writers to do likewise.
why am i not hoping for peace at any price? that might seem at best counterintuitive, at worst to make no sense at all. how to explain?
the answer is that the price is too high. here's what's at stake in our negotiations for a new three-year contract.
first, the companies are still refusing to raise the rate they pay in dvd residuals. the theatrical release of a motion picture has become, in many ways, mere marketing for the dvd, and dvds have in effect supplanted the traditional syndication of tv programming. yet the companies won't budge from a formula forged in the 1980s, before these shiny discs -- now ubiquitous -- were a glimmer in anyone's eye. that decades-old formula is such a thin slice of a thin slice that on each disc, the companies pay more to the manufacturer of the box and packaging (about 50 cents) than they pay in residuals to the writer, director and actors combined (about 20 cents).
instead of properly raising that compensation, the companies had proposed a plan in which they would pay residuals only on projects that they said had already made back their costs and been deemed "profitable." that unpopular proposal was taken off the table tuesday, but other substantial rollbacks remain in play.
published reports show that the operating income of the entertainment segments of the nation's media conglomerates has grown at a compound annual rate of 12% between 2000 and 2006, from $8 billion to $18 billion. i guess they just don't have enough to pay the people who made those revenues possible.
then there's the issue of "reality" shows on cable, in animation, in new media and elsewhere. it seems that the companies are content to make large profits on these shows but don't want to compensate the writers at standard guild rates. sometimes they even deny that there's any writing going on at all. (hint: in a "reality" show, look in the credits under "story producer.") and when they do admit that their shows are actually written, they don't want to pay the pension, healthcare and wages that are the industry standard.
what's more, the companies refuse to let writers share appropriately in the revenue stream from material distributed over the internet. they claim that this torrent is at present only a trickle, that there is no "business model," that this all needs to be "studied." and while they search for that elusive business model, they are offering to pay us at those antiquated fraction-of-a-fraction rates. never mind that, even now, this unstudied trickle is making them millions: each studio or network has cited $500 million or more a year in online revenue.
in the last two negotiations, the companies gave us little or nothing, although they graciously allowed our leadership to proclaim victory. our membership -- and the membership of our sister union, the screen actors guild -- believes that in 2007 this no longer cuts it.
the thought of a strike terrifies me. but to let the companies prevail would be to bury the notion that the creators of films, television shows and other media deserve to be fairly compensated. we need to stand strong.
the companies pull in $2 billion more each year than the year previous. the median income of screen and television writers from their guild-covered employment is $5,000 a year, in part because almost half our members don't work in any given year. unless we fight, the companies will continue to romp away in the money bin while we're left to hang upside down like lacquered ducks.
howard a. rodman, whose films include "savage grace" and "joe gould's secret," serves on the board of directors of the writers guild of america, west. he is a professor of screen and television writing at the school of cinematic arts at usc.
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joey jpjoined: 26 jul 2005posts: 733location: san jose, ca
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 11:11 pm post subject:
as someone who is looking to join the wga in the future (hopefully sooner rather than later), i feel horrible that i have been a bit fuzzy on the details of this entire issue before this thread.
that said, my hair is hurting after reading up this thread.
one of the most important persons that has helped me along my path has been cheated out of compensation for a few of his works in his career as a writer. i don't see myself doing anything else other than writing the rest of my life. not necessarily heartbreaking stuff, but stuff that just isn't right.
to get to where i wanna go, i'm gonna have to work my ass off to get there. i can be pretty lazy when it comes to writing and procrastinate for as long as humanly possible , but i'd like to think that i've been working hard as is possible to get to the point where i am now (which to tell the truth: i have no idea where i am, but hey, i am having a good time with where i am with it). so anyhow, i'm gonna want to be properly compensated for the work that hopefully i can get to the point of fruition.
is it greedy to want certain things that the wga is asking for? that's part of the spirit and beauty of this whole thing. but right now, i'm supporting the wga.
...and just when i thought i was about to call it a night, i see brian has posted another article... great thanks, more reading. _________________myspace
my fearless journey blog
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blakejoined: 05 mar 2005posts: 1127
posted: wed oct 17, 2007 11:27 pm post subject:
out of curiosity has the wga come out and openly said what are their "main" goals of their negotiations?
retributions seems to be the one everyone is talking about, but there seems to be more serious issues going on here like a larger envelope of writers being included under the collective bargaining act. and i keep seeing people talk about the removal of health care as well. i mean just looking at this it seems to be far more serious set of objectives rather than pushing for a pay increase/restructure.
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foolsfollyjoined: 19 apr 2006posts: 422location: tn
posted: thu oct 18, 2007 4:21 am post subject:
blake wrote: out of curiosity has the wga come out and openly said what are their "main" goals of their negotiations?
retributions seems to be the one everyone is talking about, but there seems to be more serious issues going on here like a larger envelope of writers being included under the collective bargaining act. and i keep seeing people talk about the removal of health care as well. i mean just looking at this it seems to be far more serious set of objectives rather than pushing for a pay increase/restructure.
right here, my man.
everything we've heard in this thread and a few curveballs like "clarify that merchandising provisions apply to “ringtones” based on mbacovered material."_________________"clothes make the man. naked people have little or no influence on society."
"if voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it."
-mark twain.
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alex wilsonjoined: 31 may 2005posts: 589location: carrboro, nc
posted: thu oct 18, 2007 7:03 am post subject:
brian k. vaughan wrote: alex wilson wrote: and hey, what's with all the press about wga being written by writers?
being written for many of the news organizations owned by the companies we might be striking against, don't forget.
grumble grumble, ruining a perfectly good joke just because it's an important issue, grumble grumble.
alex._________________
alex wilson - guidevines - inconsequential art
"that was f--kin' tops, alex!" - bkv
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dayanjoined: 17 nov 2004posts: 137location: los angeles, ca
posted: fri oct 19, 2007 6:46 pm post subject:
well, ladies and gents... the strike has been authorized. to be clear, this doesn't mean that we are on strike - just that if talks break down after oct. 31 - the negotiating committee can call for an immediate strike...
here's the good, the bad and the official, from variety (by dave mcnary):
http://www.variety.com/article/vr1117974428.html?categoryid=13&cs=1
amping up hollywood's worries about a strike, members of the writers guild of america have strongly backed a strike authorization with a 90.3% endorsement.
due to unexpectedly high turnout, announcement of results of the wga's strike authorization vote was delayed until friday evening -- four hours after the original target.
nearly half of the wga members voted with 5,507 casting ballots. the guild noted that it was the highest turnout in its history, surpassing the previous record of 4,128 votes cast in the 2001 contract ratification.
“i am both impressed and gratified by this vote," said wga west president patric verrone in a statement. "it shows an overwhelmingly engaged and activated community of writers who care about this negotiation and support our goals. it is now up to the amptp (alliance of motion picture & television producers) companies to begin to bargain seriously concerning the issues important to our members.”
little progress has been achieved at the negotiating table after three months except for the amptp's decision on tuesday to take its controversial residuals revamp off the table. once the wga asked for the strike authorization three weeks ago, hollywood's been swamped by worries that the guild will stop work as early as nov. 1 -- the day after its current contract expires.
verrone said, “writers do not want to strike, but they are resolute and prepared to take strong, united action to defend our interests. what we must have is a contract that gives us the ability to keep up with the financial success of this ever-expanding global industry.”
wga east president michael winship said, “this historic vote sends an unequivocal message to the amptp, loud and clear. we will not be taken advantage of and we will not be fooled.”
the guild's returning to the bargaining table monday -- six days after the alliance of motion picture & television producers withdrew its controversial residuals revamp -- at wga west headquarters in hollywood. the session will be only the 11th day of face-to-face negotiations since the formal bargaining began in mid-july.
when the wga asked for the strike authorization vote on oct. 1, there had been no movement by either side at negotiations since july. so it's probable that most of the ballots were cast before the amptp took its residuals proposal off the table.
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andy digglejoined: 25 mar 2007posts: 25location: london, uk
posted: sat oct 20, 2007 11:07 am post subject:
man, i picked a really shitty time to sit down and write my spec screenplay, didn't i?_________________andydiggle.com
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